SNOWDEN (Oliver Stone 2016)

[Chris Knipp]

OLIVER STONE: SNOWDEN (2014)

http://www.chrisknipp.com/links/esgs.jpg
JOSEPH GORDON-LEVITT AND BEN SCHNETZER IN SNOWDEN

The man who showed the extent of US global surveillance

Has Stone's Snowden gotten such mixed reviews for political reasons? Or because people have dismissed Stone for doing nothing for a long time as impressive as his earlier films? Or because Laura Poitras already covered this material in Citizenfour (http://www.filmleaf.net/showthread.php?3800-New-York-Film-Festival-2014&p=32837#post32837), and won the Best Documentary Oscar for it?

Actually, Snowden is an important film and (as has been said) a serious return to form for Oliver Snowden, albeit executed in a lower-keyed, more sober style that never calls attention to itself and, save for the richness of its detail and the excellence of its execution, follows the outlines of any conventional biopic tied in with contemporary news.

Snowden's most tense moments are nothing more dramatic than the interactions of its subject, intelligence cyber operative Edward Snowden (Joseph Gordon-Levitt), with his girlfriend Lindsay Mills (Shailene Woodley) or his coworkers and contrasting mentors, suave and dandyish leader Corbin O'Brian (Rhys Ifans) and sidelined maverick Hank Forrester (Nicolas Cage) , or his mere transfer of a raft of secret documents to a little USB drive, or hastily sneaking out of his Hong Kong hotel. In fact Laura Poitras's filming of the Hong Kong hotel room is , here too, for structural purposes, the central locus, though with Poitras, invisible in Citizenfour, actually shown this time (played by Melissa Leo).

All this may seem unpromising. But this is a tense and exciting movie. It spells out much that Poitras' Citizenfour omits, not just about Edward Snowden but about the power structure he became a part of in his young, brilliant career.

Stone, with his cowriter Kieran Fitzgerald, drawing on books by Luke Harding and Russian lawyer Anatoly Kucherena, shows in detail how Snowden came to do what he did, from his departure from the Army Rangers due to broken legs to his CIA and NSA training and service and work in Virginia, Geneva, Tokyo, back to Virginia, and Hawaii, to the hotel room in Hong Kong. This is the portrait of a man that may provide topics for intense debate. (It doesn't tell all, by any means. For example, it says Snowden left high school to earn money to support his parents, but we never see his parents or learn anything about them.)

This is another important film this year (like Zero Days and Lo and Behold) that focuses on the dangers to both the individual and the state of a world dominated by computers and the Internet - where everything is connected and privacy is disappearing. There is debate over whether Snowden is a whistleblower and hero, or a villainous leaker. People differ on whether Stone's film is neutral or hagiography. It is not neutral, but it steers clear of hagiography. Trump, Obama, and Hilary Clinton are united, as the movie gives plenty of clips to show, in regarding Snowden as guilty of crimes and needing to come back from asylum in Russia to "face the music."

Whatever you think about his actions, it's a fact that Edward Snoden was Time Magazine's 2013 "Person of the Year," even though they called him "The Dark Prophet" and said he "pulled off the year's most spectacular heist." The journalists who brought his revelations to the public won awards for their articles doing so. Snowden's revelations have led to changes in NSA policy voted for my Congress and approved by President Obama. Chelsea Manning, who came clean and remained in the US, is serving 35 years in prison. It's also a fact that Obama has ruthlessly tried more whistleblowers under the WWI Espionage Act than any previous president, and Snowden could not have brought the NSA practices to light as he did through channels or as a whistleblower as Hilary Clinton and others have suggested.

As A.O. Scott notes in his review of Snowden for the NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/16/movies/snowden-review-oliver-stone-joseph-gordon-levitt.html?_r=0), "What used to be paranoia — the idea, say, that your electronic appliances are spying on you — looks nowadays like blunt realism." That Orwellian futurist possibility is something Werner Herzog looks at in his Low and Behold: Reveries of the Connected World.

There are many telling scenes in the film, but perhaps the most telling are those between Snowden and another flashy and in his case pretty young CIA cyber-whiz, Gabriel Sol (Ben Schnetzer), who first shows Ed the extent to which the system they wielded could sneak instantly and without even rubber-stamp legal authorization into people's - anyone's - private lives. He calls the shocked Snowden "Snow White." Snowden is the innocent and pure one. He's a cyber monk: he believes this a sacred calling, and he does not drink or smoke. The toll taken by his stressed-out dedication repeatedly jeopardizes his otherwise solid relationship with serious amateur photographer Lindsay, as well as eventually bringing on epileptic attacks he'd not known he was subject to. While staying close in the absorbing scene-by-scene story to details of what appears to be fact (there is plenty of invention), Stone and company vividly convey the constricting bubble in which Snowden lived, where he was torn between intense patriotism, a conviction that he was uniquely gifted to serve the country's security against massive outside hackers, and his competing sense that it was all going way too far and that he was trapped in practices that violated basic constitutional rights.

The real-life Snowden, who speaks at the end of the film, and who is living somewhere in Russia with Lindsay, has often been heard from remotely in public forums (as here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVwAodrjZMY)), and always says he's not a hero or a villain but just an American citizen and that it's the issues that matter and not him. But Stone's movie shows us this everyman, who completed a five-hour CIA test in 38 minutes and threw away an extremely lucrative job to serve principles, is a long way from being ordinary.

Snowden, 134 mins., debuted in Comic-Con in San Diego in July, and 9 Sept. 2016 at Toronto; it opened in the US 16 Sept.

[Johann]

Citizenfour...gotta see that one.

I don't like Joseph Gordon-Leavitt. There is something I despise about him- his opportunism. I wonder how he went from a goofy little kid on "Family Ties"- a gagger of a sitcom- to big Hollywood actor. Somebody needs to explain who he killed to get where he is...it baffles me, because I don't believe his performances, I never give it up for his characters, and that's his fault and the director's.

I saw Oliver Stone being interviewed on the cbc at TIFF last week, and I was horrified to hear him say that "Billions of dollars are at stake!" In reference to the NSA'S shenanigans. ????
Canuck reporter Wendy Mesley never pressed him on it, and Oliver seemed cranky. he's 70 now, and he said he has a hard time getting out of bed.

[Chris Knipp]

Be that as it may, and in some ways I liked Joe better in the past than lately too, this is still a well-made, highly relevant film and the lousy reviews it's gotten are a scandal. Citizenfour (which should be seen, and won the Oscar) does not render this redundant. They complement each other around an important topic. Lives are at stake. See beyond the vessel to the contents, Johann.

Have you seen latter Days, Manic, Mysterious Skin, Stop-Loss, 500 Days of Summer, Brick, Hesher, Premium Rush, Looper, The Walk? Gordon-Levitt has assembled an impressive and remarkably varied, adventurous and interesting resume and I have followed him closely. He has earned recognition slowly and patiently and there is nothing about his career that smacks of opportunism. On the contrary he has tended to take offbeat roles that would not gain him high visibility but would take him in new directions.

[Johann]

I'll see it, because I see every Oliver Stone movie, but I'm not expecting much.
Lives are at stake, and it enrages me that the government feels they need complete access to every person's data, for "security reasons". Um, if the government did it's job as opposed to losing say, trillions at the Pentagon here, billions there, then maybe they would have some safety mechanisms in place. 9\11 PROVED the government did not have anybody's back except the WARMONGERS.

AND OBAMA...vetoing that 9/11 bill...if that doesn't scream "I AM PART OF THE SAUDI ALLIANCE", THEN WHAT DOES? yeah, you got bin Laden, BARACK. (so we're told). But 15 years later and there is no JUSTICE for the massacre under Dubya's watch.

I think snowden may help educate high school students, but what about those of us who know that Obama is wrong?

[Johann]

Did you know that Leavitt is also rumoured to have sacrificed his own brother to join the $20 million club?
He has interesting parts, but I am leery of him.

[Johann]

Another thing to consider about Gordo, Chris, is that his showing no signs of opportunism means that yes, he is a really good and dedicated actor. In fact, I am the only one (besides Oliver Stone perhaps, and why he probably hired him) who notices his "grey man" demeanor. "Grey man" is a military term for a guy who doesn't stand out, a guy who's aloof, who does exactly what he's told in as much as it helps him in the ranks. and JoGo fits that bill to a T. I took real notice of him in The Dark Knight Rises, which he's good in, yet I still don't give it up for his character- he just fit into the whole ensemble.

[Johann]

Chris, does this film do anything other than tell us who Snowden is? Other than being just another of Stone's skilled "pat" biographies?
What do you leave the theatre thinking?
That shit is hopeless? Or that something can be done?
Because that's what I want to see, a movie that can affect change, which Oliver has proven he is capable of.
I watched Sidney Lumet's amazing NETWORK recently, and the name Snowden is part of the story...any connection? Is this all one big punk? are we dupes? MY RADAR PICKS UP A LOT, and maybe it means zilch...but I don't think so. :)

[Chris Knipp]

All this is without your having seen Stone's new film.
So you're saying "Gordo" is guilty of opportunism because he doesn't show it, 'cause he's such a good actor? You're running circles around yourself, man. You have absolutely nothing to go on other than an irrational dislike of the guy. Your blaming his brother's death on him is a really low resorting to tabloid lies to support your mindless character assassination. Such talk has no place here.

[Johann]

It seems like tabloid lies, but I'm not so sure.

Professor Griff of Public Enemy is on record (and radio interview tape) talking about a sinister secret in the music industry and Hollywood- that if you commit a blood sacrifice, you are granted fame and fortune, and Griff brought up KANYE WEST as an example. Griff states that Kanye wanted fame and fortune so bad he was willing to sacrifice his own mother at the right time. (and did). Now that is some serious allegation, no? You don't go on national radio and say something crazy like that unless it's true. Kanye has never sued Griff, and blood sacrifice pages on the internet are Legion, Chris. that's where I found JoGo's name, listed with many many other stars...

Insane shit goes on, Chris. I'M OPEN TO ANYTHING.

[Johann]

I should expand on this a bit, because I never want to character assassinate anybody unless you are Stephen Harper and his ilk. (and how can you assassinate them anyway, with no character, no morals, no honor, no integrity?)

If JoGo (yes, I've just coined that term) had no connection to his brother's death, then he should be going full raging tits legal on these blood sacrifice pages. THAT is character assassination--and I wasn't the one who came up with this allegation. You think I mindlessly made it up? nope. I always have sources for what I say. It is in the realm of possibility. That's why I'm open to it. I seriously hope it's just some malicious, vile bunk. But what if it is true? How would you feel about that? And by the way, I noticed that these blood sacrifices have many participants, but the lists do not include many many stars. So yeah, a lot of them seem to be people who otherwise would never have become famous, such as Kanye, Kris Jenner, LADY GAGA (ugh-arguably the most loathesome), Mark Ruffalo, JAY-Z, ETC ETC

IT SEEMS TOTALLY TABLOID TRASH, and that's how they get away with it. Marilyn Monroe was a blood sacrifice, and her death is tabloid-ish, isn't it?

[Johann]

Also, Professor Griff is a man I really admire- he's hardcore about speaking the truth. It got him into many controversies over the years and even got fired from the group for being too honest! How insane is that? One of my favorite things he ever said was (paraphrase) "You disagree with me? OK. Then make your case. Because I'll prove mine to you. That's how you get caught up".

BTW, his response to Kanye saying he's moving to AFRICA if cops keep killing blacks was priceless:
"Take your ass to Africa then. And take your rich white whore wife with you. This nigger plays both sides! He's sitting with $100 million while we're living paycheck to paycheck"

[Chris Knipp]

I don't know about Professor Griff, but the statements you link to him sound pretty over-the-top. But regardless of source, I would never repeat derogatory information about a well known person without careful fact-checkiing, and personally my shit-detector works pretty well on its own. Tabloid trash is always out there and is just that. I also don't invent slangy cute names for people, whether I intend to slur them or not.

[Johann]

I don't invent names either, but this one fits for me. He bought the ticket, he can take the ride. He's a big boy, he can handle it. If "BRANGELINA" is accepted by all, then my little JoGo can sail past the censors.
Professor Griff is over-the-top, in the best possible way. He is the anti-Kanye, just like Full Metal Jacket is the anti-Rambo.

[Johann]

Chris, does this film do anything other than tell us who Snowden is?
Are there any solutions to the NSA problem offered in the film? Besides Edward himself, which you said he appears at the end?

[Chris Knipp]

Most folks just call him Joe, but I admit you did make a catchy one. Your tabloid career awaits you, Johann.

[Johann]

I bought a ticket to see it Friday night, but I'd still like to know from you now what solutions this movie offers, what purpose does it serve?

[Chris Knipp]

Obama provided solutions to the NSA problem. See "How NSA Spying Programs Have Changed Since Snowden (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-the-nsa-spying-programs-have-changed-since-snowden/)" or many similar articles; Obama's position has evolved gradually.

Answer the questions for yourself. There is enough about how the CIA and NSA function with surveillance not conveyed in practical terms by Citizenfour to make this worthwhile. Plus it is a well-crafted film, however conventional. Clearly people have been out to condemn it, partly for political reasons, partly because they don't like Stone (if they ever did).

I'm pretty sure you aren't going to like Snowden. You don't want to, and many people don't. Reviews are very mixed. I found it engrossing, but I guess I approach it much more sympathetic than many, toward Snowden, toward what he did, and, though I didn't realize that would be such an issue, toward Joseph Gordon-Leavitt. Though he seems to have done pretty well. His career Metacritic score is 61%. Leo DiCaprio's is 63%. Robert De Nero's is 55%. Tom Hanks 64%. Look how you started out: "I don't like Joseph Gordon-Leavitt."

[Johann]

Now we're talking.
I'm sorry if I seem like the most annoying gnat being a Debbie downer to boot, but there is a method to my madness. I was a devotee of Oliver Stone's since Platoon, which I saw very underage, and he had me forever with The Doors. I was 16, and when you are hit with that, without knowing who Morrison is, HOLY SHITBALLS. but since I've aged, I do criticize him. I've dropped the Icon worship and moved into "How and why does he make the movies he does", as I do with most great directors. trust me, Oliver is a Master filmmaker, nobody knows it better than me. he assaults the viewer like no one else, but not anymore. HE's aged too, and while I would never say his subjects are dull or void of meaning, if he could get the WARREN COMMISSION REPORT to be re-opened with JFK, (ASTONISHING!) then think of the power he has, a Titan!
A man of action. kubrick-level Awe. How did he get access to that Zapruder film, anyway? does anyone know?
But he's no longer a "mover and shaker". W. did zero to alleviate the horrifying Presidency of Bush jr., Savages did zero to alleviate drug wars, Wall Street 2 did zero to eliminate crime and corruption and collusion with the stock market, so what is Oliver doing? Will Snowden do anything to help the horrifying spying and unconstitutional abuse of power. No. It may highlight the issue, but that's all. Oliver is a dramatist, not a shaper of the world.

My "aged", older viewpoint on The Doors film is that Oliver was true to Jim's spirit, but he also left out the funny Jim, the amazing Jim you see in an old 60's clip where Jim is getting his hair and head massaged by a little girl, the Jim who was profoundly poetic. but Oliver focused on the loutish Jim too much, the bastard Jim. that's not a well rounded portrait..but Oliver also covered his ass by saying he would get crucified no matter what he did, that Jim was Citizen Kane, that everybody has a different opinion of him. So forgive me if I go into Snowden with low expectations. I'm never sure if what I'm seeing is the whole enchilada. I am really curious what Edward himself thinks of the movie. His IQ is bigger than mine, and I'm fascinated by what he did. I would like to have a one on one chat with him myself. For as long as it takes.

[Johann]

I've asked it before: Why doesn't Oliver make a film about the U.S. congress?
Or do a magnum opus on oligarchy? No holds barred? Yes, he's done his untold history of the U.S.A., but again, the whole time I watched it I was wondering "What's NOT here?!"- when I learned that Hitler may have escaped in a U-boat with a bunch of other SS officers online, I remembered that when I saw the book that accompanies the film in a bookstore. I looked through it, to see what Oliver, Yale man that he is, scholarly Titan that he is, had uncovered.And what did I see? He towed history's line. No mention of it whatsoever.
Hitler shot himself and his wife with soviet troops yards away? I never believed that for a minute.
And where was the mention of Japan, trying to surrender all summer of '45? Never mentioned...

[Johann]

I've just watched several video links of Edward Snowden and I am astonished.
Did you know that he has documents that prove Osama is still alive, in Nassau, Bahamas?
And that he still gets over a hundred thousand bucks a month from the CIA, deposited into his Nassau bank account thru shell companies?

How much of a bombshell is that?
Did you know that Al-Queda doesn't exist? That that term refers to a database of "terror" suspects, nothing more?
This cabal must end. NOW.

[Chris Knipp]

No he most definitely isn't.

Obviously an online hoax. See here (http://www.snopes.com/snowden-bin-laden-alive/). Why do you repeat such junk here? It has no place on a film discussion site.
FALSE.
ORIGIN:On 10 May 2016, several Facebook pages cited a 25 August 2015 article from fake news site World News Daily Report, claiming that National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden revealed Osama bin Laden was living in luxury in the Bahamas (courtesy of the Central Intelligence Agency):
Previous World News Daily Report fabrications included claims that a baby was born with stigmata in the Philippines, a lottery winner died after gold-plating his genitalia, a 14-year-old virgin was impregnated solely due to a flu shot, a slaughterhouse employee murdered dozens of coworkers for twenty years without anyone noticing, a donor heart recipient received an organ from an condemned serial killer and subsequently went on a killing spree, a man's genitals were chewed off during the attempted sexual assault of a pit bull, a meth-addled babysitter ate a toddler while high, and a group of "minutemen" busted two CIA agents trafficking cocaine across the Mexican border.

LAST UPDATED: 10 May 2016

Your statement about Al-Qaeda is total misinformation too. القاعدة (al-Qa3ida) means "the base," as in military base, base of operations, etc.
Al-Qaeda is a militant Sunni Islamist multi-national organization founded in 1988 by Osama bin Laden, Abdullah Azzam, and several other Arab volunteers who fought against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980s. Wikipedia
Founded: 1988 See HERE (https://www.google.com/search?oq=%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%B9%D8%AF%D8% A9&q=%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%A7%D8%B9%D8%AF%D8%A9#q=al-qaeda+founders&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOPgE2LXz9U3KDM30VLNTrbSzy9KT8zL rEosyczPQ-FYpeWX5qWkFgEA-t9CHTIAAAA)
Founders: Saeed al-Masri, Mamdouh Mahmud Sali It is voluminously documented in many sources.
Repeating nonsense like this is unworthy of you and anyway belongs, if anywhere, in the "Lounge" section of the site.

http://www.chrisknipp.com/links/&&(.jpg

[Johann]

Osama was a fully trained CIA operative, that is an undeniable fact. I don't place any stock in al-queda being "real". What it really is is an arm of the CIA. All of Osama's family members WERE allowed to fly out of the USA in the days after 9/11, when all other aircraft in the country were grounded.

If you believe the official story on his demise and whereabouts then you are a dupe.
Just like we're all dupes about Hitler killing himself.
This is important.
Believe nothing the government tells you. NOTHING. It definitely has a place here too- we aren't just film lovers here. We are conscious individuals as well, who I hope want to eliminate corrupt hypocrisy that we've been fed since birth. If not, then I bail right now.

[Chris Knipp]

Favored status of the bin Laden family with the Bush administration is established, the rest is rubbish. All this belongs in the Lounge section, if anywhere.

[Johann]

All of this is bigger than Snowden or you or me.
And you clearly don't care, nor does anyone else, so why do I bother?

[Johann]

Forget no justice, no peace. This situation is "No consciousness, no peace", it's "No oversight, no peace". NO CLUE NO PLANET.

If you don't follow the money, then you will die without changing a damn thing. Snowden is a hero and look how he's treated...fuck everything. I'm retired from this website.

[Johann]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lwo6qz10LSQ

And here's another one, that you can't scoff at:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Xju3j41r4


seriously, wake the fuck up or DIE.

[Chris Knipp]

Did you mean "site" or "thread"? Anyway your first comment on the thread was your best one: "Citizenfour. Gotta see that one. Do. Later comments were attention-getting, but distracting from the topics, Snowden, the NSA, Oliver Stone.

[Johann]

Yes, I meant site. I'm finished, Chris. I hope everything I posted in this thread IS attention-getting.
Did you see those links I just posted? What do you think about them? Because if they don't contain enough to convince you that the cabal is real, I got a lot more. How heavy do I have to go? I'm not an unhinged conspiracy nutter. This shit is real. Do you know who Alex Jones is?
By the way, everything I posted here ties into the Snowden situation. You just can't see the connection. You're only interested in films. I'M interested in democracy, as I've said already.

I've been on this website for 15 years, and I'VE EVOLVED. You should know me by now Chris. But it appears you don't. What are you missing from this equasion? You are missing the Masonic Massacre that has been building since September 11th 2001. It's right in front of you and you don't see it.

I should post the video of Oliver Stone's son Sean, discussing Kubrick's Eyes wide shut with Alex Jones.
But you can look it up, right? Prepare to have your mind blown.

[Johann]

Because you're being aloof, I guess I have to go really hard in the yard.
Watch this: The whole enchilada.
It is 1933 all over again, and you and everybody else is oblivious to it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYSo5GGE3no

[Johann]

Don't keep me in suspense, Chris.
What do you have to say about what I've posted?

[Chris Knipp]

It's utter nonsense and I can't understand why it would interest you. I think you need to calm down and take a break from your computer and the internet.

[Johann]

And I've lost all respect for you.
Goodbye.

[Johann]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=icBp41jbuMo