INTO THE ABYSS: A TALE OF DEATH, A TALE OF LIFE (Werner Herzog 2011)

[Chris Knipp]

Werner Herzog: INTO THE ABYSS: A TALE OF DEATH, A TALE OF LIFE (2011)
Review by Chris Knipp

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MICHAEL JAMES PERRY INTERVIEWED BY WERNER HERZOG EIGHT DAYS BEFORE HIS EXECUTION

Varieties of murder

While Herzog's last documentary delved into prehistoric caves where ancient paintings lie hidden, his new one, Into the Abyss: A Tale of Death, a Tale of Life, penetrates the modern darkness of crime-ridden towns and the prisons of Texas, the capital of the death penalty in America. Since state execution was restored in the US in 1976, Texas has executed four times as many prisoners as Virginia, the next highest. By implication the "abyss" means both the abyss of violent crime, -- and the film highlights one series of those; and the abyss of cruel and unusual punishment -- and directly and by indirection it concentrates on that too. Herzog focuses on a single event, the killing of three people ten years ago, a crime perpetrated with the sole aim of stealing a red 1997 Camaro from a a house in a gated community, and the two young men convicted of the triple homicide: Michael James Perry (smiling and protesting his innocence), executed only eight days after Herzog interviewed him, and his accomplice, Jason Burkett, who spoke to the director from prison while serving a life sentence. Into the Abyss probably adds little, if anything, to the richer texture of knowledge provided by Truman Capote's In Cold Blood, a book that covers a similar crime by a couple of young men and is similar (but more intense) even in the involvement of the author with the killers; the meticulous recapitulation of the crime; the detailed study of the victims' lives and the perpetrators' lives; and the agonizing lead-up to execution and the execution itself. Nonetheless it is valid to say as Allan hunter of Screen International has, that this film "Suggests a cinematic equivalent of Truman Capote's masterwork In Cold Blood."

This lacks the distinctive flavor and starkly original perception of Grizzly Man or Encounters at the End of the World, and yet it is vintage Herzog, because the material is powerful and vivid and it is presented with distinctive elegance, class, and moral integrity. And there is the advantage of film. While in Capote's book we can imagine the voices, here we actually hear the voices and see the faces of some very colorful white southerners, some educated, others not, who have been to and still to some extent occupy their own very dark places. Herzog teases out their testimony with remarkable subtlety and sympathy. We never see him but we hear his own voice with its very distinctive timbre and accent, and in every frame we feel his presence. These people, like all Herzog's subjects, have been out to the edge of the world and may have trouble ever finding their way back.

It will be hard to forget the grinning, choirboy face of Michael James Perry, who with a person he knew, but had not been till recently close to, Jason Burkett, was convicted of killing the three people -- though he denies it, and calls his execution an "atrocity." The State of Texas executed Perry in Huntsville, Texas on July 1, 2010, the 14th execution in the state that year. He was 28. When he was Incarcerated he was 18. Though they must cross the border line of cage and glass between prisoner and visitor, there is nothing like the intimacy of Herzog's interviews with Perry and Jason Burkett, or with Burkett's father, in prison for life himself, whose tearful plea to the jury to spare his boy probably helped save Jason from execution. Herzog views the crime and punishment from every angle. He is well served by police footage both of the lethal injection execution chambers at Huntsville and of the crime scene (shot when the blood was barely dry) at Conroe and the expressively named neighboring town of Cut and Shoot. It isn't easy to understand what happened; nonetheless a sheriff in charge of the case takes Herzog over the ground explaining the investigation. The young men killed one young woman at the house, and then later, returning, found the gate to the community closed, and killed two others just to get the clicker that would let them back in. And they dropped the bodies hither and yon.

The relationships between the people are complicated, almost inbred. The visible sufferer, her life ravaged, is Lisa Stotler-Balloun, daughter/sister/aunt to two of the victims, who grants that "an eye for an eye" may be morally unjustifiable, but still took comfort from witnessing Perry's execution. Also interviewed is the Rev. Richard Lopez, who is present at the executions, and Death House captain Fred Allen, who after the execution of a sole female, said enough!, and quit, forfeiting a pension to get out of a process that had come to make him sick. Herzog speaks to other relatives, and some of them feel guilty too. Both the crimes and the punishments seem to exude a pervasive sense of culpability. Where will it end? All the while Herog's voice soothes the interviewees, and convinces them of his perception and respect and honesty: he seems always one step ahead. Burkett's wife appears in the film, a free woman, who seems a well-educated one, who corresponded with, fell in love with, then met and married Burkett when he was already in jail. Their only allowed contact has been holding hands under supervision by guards, but she claims to be pregnant with his child, by what method of impregnation she won't disclose.

Herzog affirms that he opposes capital punishment but has denied that this is an "issue film." It clearly focuses on crime and punishment with equal intensity and no ulterior motive. On the other hand the revival of intense anti-capital punishment activity surrounding the Troy Davis case as well as outrage over the cheering for the execution of of Michael Perry at the Republican presidential candidates' debate have apparently led Herzog to push for earlier release of the film to coincide with the current surge of anti-death penalty feeling.

Restrained music, delicate organization into sections, and beautifully edited and handsome digital photography all contribute, along with the director's hypnotic and inimitable voice, to making this a documentary that is as technically refined and satisfying as it is distinctively humane and sensitive.

Into the Abyss, a Sundance Selects release, was first shown at Telluride but had its official debut at Toronto. It won the Best Documentary prize at the BFI London Festival. US release date: November 11, 2011. UK: March 23, 2012.

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WERNER HERZOG AT A TEXAS PRISON

[Johann]

Outstanding.
Many thanks. Your writing is superb. Thanks for giving us an early review of Herzog's latest.
I can't wait to see it.
Is it Oscar worthy? A nomination at least?
Herzog said he doesn't have sleepless nights over getting an Oscar, but why hasn't he ever won one?
They're giving OPRAH one this year, for God's sake.

[Chris Knipp]

Thanks for the encouraging words. The Oscars will be following precedent if they claim ABYSS. It's already won the BFI Grierson Award for Best Documentary at the LFF and, I think, started off a couple of doc fests as the featured film since.

It is definitely one of the best docs of the year. Below a list of other 2011 docs I'm familiar with (mostly seen, some I want to see) from a huge IMDb list. (http://www.imdb.com/search/title?sort=moviemeter,asc&start=751&title_type=documentary&year=2011,2011) The ones I think significant (competition for Herzog's) are highlighted. From as far as I could go in this alarmingly long list. The world grinds out docs at a truly nauseating rate. There are multiple ones on the same topic, the killing of Bin Laden, for example. Or Britney Spears, or Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga. Many are just puffery. Or scandal-mongering or sensationalism.

I went through 850 of 6,643 titles in the IMDb list of "most popular" (!) documentaries of 2011.

Black Power Mixtape 1967-1975, The [ND/NF - good reviews and worth seeing but I think adds little that is new]
*Bobby Fischer Against the World [A strange, complex figure, and once one of the most famous men in the world]
Conan O'Brien Can't Stop
Connected: An Autoblogography About Love, Death & Technology [This sounds timely; have not seen]
Detroit Wild City [SFIFF]
El Bulli: Cooking in Progress [Now showing -- have not seen]
George Harrison: Living in the Material World [NYFF - not really outstanding, I think, despite Scrosese's name on it]
Hit So Hard [ND/NF -- Courtney Love lesbian addict drummer biopic]
*Interrupters, The [Fine piece of work, important subject]
Justin Bieber: Never Say Never [Yes, I saw it: there are at least 3 docs on Bieber, as many on Lady Gaga this year, several on Britney Spears]
Man Nobody Knew, The: In Search of My Father, CIA Spymaster William Colby [Not interesting or critical enough]
*Page One: A Year Inside the New York Times [I loved this but it may not have enough raves]
Paul Goodman Changed My Life [Significant to me]
Pearl Jam At Twenty [Nothing unusual]
*Pina [Wim Wenders -- NYFF -- did not like, but celebrated all over]
Revenge of the Electric Car [Have not yet seen but should; reviewed the earlier film]
Rhymes & Life: The Travels of a Tribe Called Quest [didn't see much in this]
Sarah Palin: You Betcha! [Have not had the pleasure; came and went quickly]
*Senna - A documentary on Brazilian Formula One racing driver Ayrton Senna [Touching, classic biopic; he was a big hero to many, especially in Europe and his native Brazil]
Shut Up Little Man! An Audio Misadventure [SFIFF, but did not see. This was featured at fests and shownn at IFC but sounded like it would be torture to watch, but original topic]
Something Ventured [SFIFF -- about major startups and venture capital in Silicon Valley - significant topic]
*Buck [An examination of the life of acclaimed 'horse whisperer' Buck Brannaman]
*Project Nim [Watch in conjunction with the Planet of the Apes prequel -- strong doc]
Tahrir (Stefano Savona) [Was shown at the NYFF but I skipped it]
*We Were Here [About (mostly gay) survivors of AIDS in San Francisco in the Eighties - got rave reviews, all the talking heads are interesting]

[Johann]

This is another fascinating film from Werner Herzog. The way he interviews his subjects is remarkable indeed. He asks the right probing questions and gets interesting responses, which in turn expand your scope of the crime and the punishment.

It's a real serious contentious topic, capital punishment. Here in Canada we don't have the death penalty and probably never will. The USA definitely feels it's necessary, as you correctly pointed out Chris that State executions were back on the books in 1967.
This film will make you question your own stand on the issue, from different angles. Herzog has the victims' side of things, the polices' side, the States' side, the perpetrators' side and even the side of dead prisoners who lay in graves with no names on them, only numbers.

So where do I stand on capital punishment? I agree with Herzog that no one should ever take a human life. But what do you do when it happens? What kind of laws will you enforce when you know that it may happen, given humans' penchant for doing this insane act? Forgive the person and say "Don't do it again!"? Make them sit in prison for life? I believe that every case is different, some more cut and dried than others, and the legal system and law enforcement personnel should get all the facts they can, as quick as they can, and expedite Justice. Have you seen that A&E program THE FIRST 48? I think that show is amazing. But it seems the police have murder cases go cold before the body is, and criminals slip through the cracks. Thank god Perry & Burkett were caught. The descriptions of the shootout with the police was nuts, with wild photos. They knew the gig was up, and it was all guns blazing. That part should convince you of their guilt. Not to mention that Perry has no remorse. He's innocent. He's a Christian, and he forgives the victims for what they did to him. WOW. And what of Burkett's father, praying at the time Perry was being executed, and feeling his death? Herzog has made a very profound film here. There are many ways human beings die at the hands of someone else. What a dynamic to have victims, perpetrators and executioners give us their experiences to paint a very profound portrait of life and death. I think Herzog deserves the Nobel Peace Prize. He's really unearthed the truth on the death penalty. Perry's DNA was on a cigarette butt that the victim had fallen on. Jason Burkett pinning the blame on Perry is ridiculous. And Perry's lame-ass admission that hooking up with Burkett was a terrible decision was enough for me to know that he was guilty, Burkett was guilty, and Jason is damn lucky his father's testimony in court spared him being strapped to a gurney. Because he deserved it. But Herzog goes deep into the lives here, and Burkett is a new father and will be married. And he's not to be paroled until 2041. But you and I and his father know that he won't get out. Jason's new wife refuses to believe that he was involved in killing three people. WOW.

[Chris Knipp]

Glad you got to see this, Johann.

That Canada has never had the death penalty is an important way in which it's a more civilized country, despite its imitating the US in too many unfortunate aspects. But most civilized countries don't have it any more if they ever did. In having the death penalty, most civilized countries having abolished it, the States side with Bangladesh, China, Saudi Arabia and Iran, but also with Japan, I notice, one highly developed country that has it.

Eighteen states don't have death penalty statutes. What seems insane to me is "Death Row" -- keeping prisoners slated for execution in prison waiting for many years. Talk about "cruel and unusual." The death penalty seems outmoded, a thing of the past, indicated by some of former methods of carrying it out, stoning, beheading, flaying. "Lethal injection," so-called, has not proved lately to be at all a "humane" method of killing people. Death by a firing squad seems like a much quicker and more reliable way. Switching to "lethal injection" doesn't make the death penalty okay.

Fun facts from the Wikipedia main Capital Punishment article (it has many):
Of the states where the death penalty is permitted, California has the largest number of inmates on death row. Texas has performed the most executions (since the US Supreme Court allowed capital punishment to resume in 1976, 40% of all US executions have taken place in Texas),[62] and Oklahoma has had (through mid-2011) the highest per capita execution rate.[63]

.

[Johann]

Oh Canada had capital punishment once upon a time- the last prison executions up here were in 1965 in Toronto, 2 men were hanged. We haven't had it since, and probably won't ever have it. You've got a good point with the time spent waiting to die on Death Row. It is absurd. There is a systemic flaw in the Justice system if a prisoner who was sentenced to die sits there for a decade or more before he meets his fate. If it was such a slam-dunk case to warrant a sentence of execution, then WTF are you doing? Perry had a hail-mary "please save me" plea but it was fruitless. And it clearly should be in his case. The evidence and his confession earned him a date with the reaper. He's trying not to show the effects of knowing he's going to die, but you can see it's on his mind. Look at his eye contact with Herzog when he's in the booth. He's alert. He was never insane. He knew what he was doing at all times, and he didn't care. If he was dealt a shitty hand in life and resorted to petty rime and drugs that led to murder that led to a shootout that led to being convicted by a Jury, which led to the lethal injection gurney....how much sympathy can we have for his "situation" when he did zero to earn any. Jason Burkett seems to be trying to salvage a life from behind bars, what with falling in love and having a child, and realizing his Dad was sorry for the way he raised him...Burkett had redemption, God intervened on his behalf wouldn't you say? But did he deserve it? He's just as guilty as Perry! This was two "friends" backstabbing each other when their plan to steal a car went awry.

What do you make of the rainbow story his girlfriend told?

[Chris Knipp]

I don't remember the rainbow story now. It's been three years. I remember the backstabbing though. Don't you believe in redemption? I think I might depart from you there.

When Herzog was honored at the San Francisco Film Festival with an evening at the Castro Theater I was there, thanks to Travis Kirby and his father. I didn't know much about him and still have not seen some of his most famous films, but my respect for him was sealed by GRIZZLY MAN. As a documentary filmmaker he has unusual conviction and he's a bold and fearless man. So I've tried to see his new films since GRIZZLY MAN. His documentary oeuvre is substantial. He's very prolific. What I've seen is only a drop in the bucket even of the docs. This is from Wikipedia:


WERNER HERZOG
Documentary feature films
The Flying Doctors of East Africa (1969)
Handicapped Future (1971)
Land of Silence and Darkness (1971)
The Great Ecstasy of Woodcarver Steiner (1974)
How Much Wood Would a Woodchuck Chuck (1976)
Huie's Sermon (1981)
God's Angry Man (1981)
Ballad of the Little Soldier (1984)
The Dark Glow of the Mountains (1984)
Herdsmen of the Sun (1989)
Echoes From a Somber Empire (1990)
Jag Mandir (1991)
Lessons of Darkness (1992)
Bells from the Deep (1993)
The Transformation of the World into Music (1994)
Gesualdo: Death for Five Voices (1995)
Little Dieter Needs to Fly (1997)
My Best Fiend (1999)
Wings of Hope (2000)
Wheel of Time (2003)
The White Diamond (2004)
Grizzly Man (2005)
Encounters at the End of the World (2007)
Cave of Forgotten Dreams (2010)
Happy People: A Year in the Taiga (2010)
Into the Abyss (2011)
On Death Row I + II (2012/2013)

Documentary short films
La Soufrière (1977)
Portrait Werner Herzog (1986)
Christ and Demons in New Spain (1999)
Pilgrimage (2001)
Ten Thousand Years Older (2002)
La Bohème (2009)
On Death Row (2012) TV miniseries in four, hour-long episodes
From One Second to the Next (2013)

[Johann]

I don't remember the rainbow story now. Don't you believe in redemption? I think I might depart from you there.

Yes Herzog's filmography is staggering. I do believe in redemption, but Michael Perry was beyond redemption, like Charles Manson was/is beyond redemption. I know he'd re-offend again were he to walk free. He'd be a lifer in jail. I agree with victim Lisa. She said she had to look into his eyes to see if he was the monster she built him up to be in her head, and he didn't disappoint.

The rainbow story was about how Burkett's case handler fell in love with him and how they both saw a big rainbow. A sign from God that they were to be together for eternity.

[Chris Knipp]

You believe in redemption, till you withhold it. All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others -- or more redeemable. There are worse people than Perry, and Charles Manson would be a place to begin.

[Johann]

Believing in redemption doesn't mean I can't condemn someone if I feel they are beyond it. Maybe in their next life they can be redeemed. It's up to God, isn't it? Not me. I'm a little 'ol Sinner. :)

[Johann]

Chris, you didn't take heed of what Lisa (the main victim here, besides the actual homicide victims) said right after Herzog mentions Jesus Christ not being in favor of capital punishment. "Yes, but some people don't deserve to live".

[Johann]

Or to be even more clear in my thinking on this subject, here's what Henry Rollins said after witnessing his great friend Joe Cole get shot in the face, dead, in a robbery gone bad:

"People are trying to console me with "everything happens for a reason" YEAH? See that guy over there? Go over there and shoot him dead in the face and come back here and tell me "everything happens for a reason".

[Johann]

I'd be interested to hear what members here think of this documentary.
See it, Guys. Let's hear what you think about the death penalty, it's pros and cons.

Chris, are you saying redemption is a package deal? I don't agree. Redemption is always possible, for any person. But we've only got one life. Either you see the light or you don't. Pretty simple, really.

[Johann]

Related to this topic:

The killer of 12 people in a Denver movie theatre on the midnight opening screening of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES is facing trial very soon, and his defence team are asking for more delays. The families want no more delays. This sick tragedy happened on July 20, 2012, and it'll be 2015 in 3 weeks. Justice is not being served here. James Holmes, the 26-year-old piece of shit perp who pulled this horrible event off, pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, but the Judge rejected that. (Good Judge!). I've learned a few disturbing things about this crime, and Holmes is a very interesting person to me. He's someone everybody should zero in on and look at the circumstances of his life and what he perpetrated. What do you make of this?:

Holmes was a huge Batman fan. His apartment apparently had all kinds of Batman related memorabilia. I'm a huge Batman fan too. But oddly enough I'd never even contemplate let alone act out Batman in real life. Holmes acted out his crime as "The Joker"- he called himself the Joker when police arrested him. His hair was dyed orange, he was armed to the hilt, with a knife and guns and ammunition. If he was a huge fan of Batman, then why wouldn't he want to SEE The Dark Knight Rises? Was The Dark Knight all he needed to see? Was he inspired by Heath Ledger so much that he just couldn't help himself? Does he think he'll just be sent to Arkham Asylum? If he only pleads not guilty by reason of insanity? Every psychiatrist within earshot should be perking up over this guy's case. The Judge did something awesome. He rejected that plea and basically told the defence team to get on with it- the State will be seeking the death penalty for this clown and he should get it. Strap his Joker ass to the gurney. And call Werner Herzog. There's a film waiting to be made right here! A companion piece to INTO THE ABYSS....Holmes went OPENING NIGHT. THIS WAS PRE-MEDITATED ALL THEY WAY. Find out who put him up to it and why.

[Chris Knipp]

It appears the judge in the Denver theater case allowed the insanity plea but also won't rule out the death penalty. Massive data from defense including thousands of pps. of psychological evals mean a long trial. See this recent story (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/movie-theater-shooting/theater-shooting-judge-wont-bar-death-penalty-after-repeated-requests-from-james-holmes-lawyers):
In a ruling released Thursday (http://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/18th_Judicial_District/18th_Courts/12CR1522/010/2014-12-04%20Order%20Regarding%20Defendants%20Revised%20Mo tion%20to%20Strike%20the%20Death%20Penalty%20Becau se%20the%20State%20and%20Federal%20Constitutions%2 0Prohibit%20the%20Execution%20(D-186a).pdf), District Court Judge Carlos Samour wrote that Holmes' mental health is in dispute and would be an issue during the trial. The judge also said the defense didn't make a persuasive argument that executing a mentally ill person was cruel and unusual. This is going to be contested by the defense, for sure. This goes against Ford v. Wainwright and the interpretation that the Eighth Amendment prohibits execution of the insane.

If you think going to a mental hospital is getting off, you might be mistaken. That can be worse than prison. Prison has parole and a mental hospital is for life. However after killing 12 people he's not likely to get paroled.

There is another current high profile Colorado murder trial, of 26-year-old Ari Liggett for killing and dismembering his mother. Liggett's sister has declared (http://denver.cbslocal.com/2014/11/18/focus-on-sanity-is-complex-in-two-high-profile-colorado-murder-cases/), "He was definitely sane,but he is also extremely mentally ill." That sounds ludicrous, but actually brings up the point that crazy people in fact are not always unaware of reality. (Their awareness may come and go, however.)

Possibly premeditation of a crime would not rule our an insanity defense.
“If, hypothetically, a person believes they were the Joker or Batman, believing that ideal, it doesn’t mean they are more sane because they planned it out,” Steinhauser [defense lawyer for Holmes] said. But the jury in he Liggett case ruled that Liggett was sane at the time of his crime.

It seems hard to see how you can excuse somebody for killing twelve innocent people. Yes, it would be interesting to see Werner Herzog interview Holmes.

[Johann]

I'd give anything to see Herzog interview Holmes. It wasn't just the 12 dead- he injured another 70 people in the theatre.

We'll see what happens with this trial.
So you have mental institutions in the States? We have none here in Canada, at least as far as I know. There are none in the province Ontario, where I live, that's for damn sure. General hospitals have been the common dumping ground for our mentally unstable people, and it's usually jail if they commit some insane crime. It's a serious problem. Our governments (federal and provincial) have zero interest in treating mentally ill people. They'd rather just desert them and see what happens. Holmes is a piece of work. I happen to believe he did someone's bidding, like Hitler, and the tables were turned on him, and now he's scrambling to save his own life. To me he fits the bill to a T of "doesn't deserve to live".

[Chris Knipp]

I am firmly opposed to capital punishment. So is Werner Herzog. See this Hollywood Reporter interview (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/werner-herzog-capital-punishment-death-row-investigation-discovery-298096):
THR: Werner, how did your opinion on capital punishment change in the process?
Herzog: It didn’t change. I think it's a question of principle. I come from a different historical background and being a guest in the United States I respectfully disagree with the practice of capital punishment. As a German I have no business becoming an activist, and I should be the last one to tell American audiences how to deal with their criminal justice system. But I do voice my position.
I do not go around saying someone or another "deserves to die." It is not for me to make such proclamations. I am not God. And in the case of someone who is crazy or deranged, it's even difficult to make moral judgments. But that Holmes is a menace to society and should be kept under restraint is obvious. US penalties are too severe, with masses of black men locked up for decades for petty, non-violent crimes, often in solitary confinement. Some cases today sound just like Victor Hugo.

Yes, the US has mental institutions, but some are parts of jails, and many mentally ill people are locked up or on the streets. The state began dumping them during the Reagan era. That's when the homeless population grew too.

[Johann]

You have a very sane and sound opinion on the matter.

I don't believe a human life should ever be taken either, but we live in a sick world. Lives are taken every single day for some of the most ridiculous and tragic reasons. Gandhi said "An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind", but turning the other cheek doesn't really send a message to criminals. If one of your family members was senselessly murdered it could ruin your life, make you fall into despair, feel immense sadness and hopelessness- even Aristotle Onansis (once the world's richest man) lost the will to live after his son died. That's what these crimes do- they rob people of more than just a loved one. They inflict pain that can last forever. And what do they get? Time in a jail cell? Where they probably don't think about the crime all that much? Your free, he's in jail. He's still breathing. The unfairness of it is what makes me say "An eye for eye!", and I'd take comfort in seeing the criminal who killed my wife or child get a lethal injection. That would probably be the only moment that criminal would realize the enormity of what he'd done- just like Michael Perry did.

It's contentious, very tricky and very much a morality thing with capitol punishment. I believe it should be case by case, consult with the victims extensively, have your trial, and make the verdict. The punishment should fit the crime. In a perfect world we'd have no need for jails or death row period. Families would and should take care of their own in a civilized society. You wouldn't need "the system" to sort out their lives if that were the case. Give the victims the option of putting the perp to death, not the courts. They could forgive him or condemn him according to how they feel they've been treated, no? Then the State is off the hook for being labelled merciless killers. But sadly, every State has different ideas on how this should be handled. It sux. Humans sux at dispensing justice. They have a real hard time with it, and I understand why.

[Chris Knipp]

In my "sane and sound opinion" capital punishment doesn't become okay because of the "sickness" of the world or the vindictiveness of "victims." Some victims, the more noble, choose to forgive perpetrators, but justice shouldn't be meted out according to their wishes but work independent of any side.

[Johann]

Great. But when does that happen. HOW does that happen?
This is a great thread here, Chris.
There's a lot about our society that is not "OK", and this discussion could spiral off into what governments, Justice systems and society should be responsible for. I'm just glad we've gotten some dialogue going on this hot topic.

I encourage everyone reading this to see Herzog's film and think about it hard.

[Chris Knipp]

When and how justice happens are good questions, and big questions.

I thought you had abandoned your Canadian political commentaries in the popular Stephen Harper is delusional thread, but I see now you had not at all.

[Johann]

I did abandon it- I asked you and Peter to lock it. No dice. So I figured I'd keep going.

[Chris Knipp]

I recall. Glad you went back, was my point.