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Chris Knipp
02-12-2009, 12:21 AM
Obama and Afghanistan

ACLU Dreictor Anthony Romero's statement (http://obama.wsj.com/topic/Anthony_Romero) about the Justice Department's affirmation of a court decision to go on concealing the US's rendition actions is a strong one. "This is not change. This is definitely more of the same." Well, Obama does represent change. But he also represents more of the same. And the way he is a little of both shows up in his plan to step up US military involvement in Afghanistan.

The US Afghanistan efforts: a mess

An ABC piece (http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/Story?id=3931809&page=1o) about a poll noted that 'Afghans' Criticism of U.S. Efforts' is rising. General support of the US presence was 68% in 2005, 57% last year; and now only 42%. One out of five said US troops had recently killed Afghans in their region, double two years ago. Amy Goodman recently interviewed Sherif Bassouni. Bassouni was previously fired as a UN human rights investigator in Afghanistan after reporting atrocities committed by US-employed contractors in the country. He was long protesting the concealment of what was going on in US-run prisons there. Speaking to Amy Goodman gave "one small example" of US clumsiness in Afghanistan: $200 million spent on court houses, without prior arrangement with the Afghan judiciary, which turned out not to know about them or the money to furnish or maintain them.

It has been clear for some time that Afghanistan's US-client ruler Hamid Karzai controls only the Kabul area, at best, while the rest of the country is run by warlords who are also drug lords and who make their own rules. Due to a culture of tribal loyalties and a rugged geography, ruling the country or even beginning to unite it are daunting problems.

No military solution

Bassiouni told Goodman the Afghan problems cannot be solved militarily. In the meantime, the US military "would be more comfortable with having a specifically military mission" (to "go after" the Taliban, their supporters, and Al Qaeda) and are "very averse" to functioning as a police support force to help in the ecnomic development of the country." But more decisively he said, "I am convinced there is no military solution in Afghanistan. There is an economic development solution, but I don't see that as coming."

A logical point about Obama's long-expressed plan to double US forces in Afghanistan from thirty to sixty thousand: if he opposed the war in Iraq, why does he want to follow an Iraq-war based "surge" plan in Afghanistan? Apart from the argument that war is harmful and cruel and wasteful, there is always an even better point for the pragmatists: it often doesn't work. We have seen how Israel's brutal assaults on Lebanon (to 'get' Hezbollah) two years ago and its even more horrific attack on Gaza (to 'get' Hamas) have been tactical and public relations failures (to put it mildly) and are turning Israel into a pariah state in the eyes of most of the world outside Israel and the United States. We have come to realize through much discussion and evidence about Baghram and Abu Gharib and 'extraordinary rendition', that according to experts, torture, apart from being illegal and immoral, is not a good way of getting reliable information. So why is it going to work to bomb Pakistan and double the US military troop involvement in Afghanistan?

I have referred before to Nir Rosen's article (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/23612315/how_we_lost_the_war_we_won) in Rolling Stone, "How We Lost the War We Wion," in which he argues from a period of being 'embedded,' so to speak, with the Taliban that they cannot be beaten militarily. Bassiouni pointed out that they have simply laid low and waited when they were out-matched, following Mao and the style of indigenous insurgencies everywhere. He also stated that Afghanistan is a tougher place, so crypto-imperialistic nation-building efforts can fail harder. This has been pointed out by many historians and summarized by Robert Fisk: nobody has ever been able to conquer Afghanistan. For both geographical and cultural reasons it is the toughest of nuts to crack.

After 9/11 the US attacked Afthanistan because it was headquarters for Al Qaeda and Bin Laden, but Bin Laden slipped away, and Al Qaeda, naturally, popped up elsewhere. Somehow, for different reasons, including imperialism, a naive messiah complex, and greed for profit-taking, the US got stuck in Afghanistan. Of course analogies with Iraq make not sense. Iraq was far more urbanized and developed when the US moved in to 'democratize' it by destroying it. Iraq's strategic, cultural, and economic attractiveness is obvious. But as Nir Rosen argues in his piece, Afghanistan isn't really worth the effort. Why would Obama want to step things up there, along with increasing bombings and incursions into Pakistan? It seems to be that he simply wants to show he's tough and friendly to the military, while avoiding the taint associated with Iraq.

All one can conclude is that these promised and already occuring incursions under the Obama administration are a misguided effort to look tough, a 'stick' to go with the 'carrot.' But what are the 'carrots,' and what is the use of a 'stick'?

Johann
03-25-2009, 10:58 AM
I really liked President Obama's address last night.
He was on point, clear, direct, and showed some real Leadership.
I can't tell you how great it is to see someone as U.S. President who looks, speaks and ACTS the part.
Reagan sucks, but he was the last one to seem "Presidential" to me.

Obama made it crystal clear last night that in order to see the U.S. grow, (to have growth) money needs to be spent on health care, energy, education and programs that promote growth.
If you don't do that (like Bush didn't for 8 long years) then you have what we have today: massive job losses, massive burdens on the systems already in place, people cutting their own work hours so that co-workers won't get fired, insurance companies raping people left right and center, etc etc etc.

I loved it when he put that fuckhead reporter in his place:
"Why didn't you respond to the AIG thing for 2 whole days?"
Obama: "It took two days because I like to know what I'm talking about before I speak".
Boo Yah!
NEXT!

President Obama thinks about all of the issues, the sides, the concerns, the problems and he thinks RATIONALLY about it.
That's extremely encouraging.
Bush didn't even think about what tie he would fucking wear.

As for Afghanistan, I was a soldier. I could've been right there.
I know people who've died there.
It really bothers me that I don't know what the mission is.
I'm not in the army anymore (haven't been since 1996) but even as a civilian, with all my fact-finding abilities, I cannot figure out what we are there for (the U.S. AND Canada).
It was pointed out in the Toronto Sun that the cost of the war could end homelessness in Canada. Wow.
That information just stuns me.
Why are we there?
If the taliban are such a massive threat, then why not tell everybody in the region who's not an insurgent they got 6 days to get the fuck out of dodge. Why? Because we're gonna carpet bomb the mountains for a month straight. Till there's not one single taliban scarf intact. Infantry will do clean-ups, sweeps of the areas after we've obliterated it.
Then you got a war. Any man left alive after the bombing deserves to fight a Marine or a Patricia or a Ranger or an Airborne troop one on one, who's ready to kill these primitive assholes, who don't like the idea of peace.
What is the problem with intel?
Why is it so hard to defeat this insurgency?
If I was a soldier in Afghanistan, I'd be squawking to a lot to people immediately above me, because this shit ain't working.
And it sucks to die in something that ain't working...

Chris Knipp
03-25-2009, 11:51 AM
Many of the things Obama has done are breathtaking in their clarity and good sense--and the speed with which he has acted. Unfortunately, all is not well in the area of rights, as his administration has hedged on black sites, detentions, etc. despite planning to shut down Guantanamo. Health care we don't know about yet but it doesn't look at all likely that the US solution will be as good as Canada; the big drug and health care rackets in the US control Congress too well.

As for Afghanistan, that's Obama's Vietnam, if he goes on with this. Robert Fisk has often run though the history of Afghanistan and shown why it's not a country anybody can ever control from outside. Obama's sensible talk on doing more than just military solutions there is just another variation on the "hearts and minds' shuck of Vietnam. It's all recycled. in this area, he was conventional and wrong before and he still is. I said this in more detail above in the opening post (http://www.filmwurld.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=21341#post21341) of this thread.

Yeah, you could end homelessness. That'll be the day. Unfortunately, Canada is though a very different country in key ways, still way too much under the influence of its neighbor.

Johann
03-25-2009, 12:23 PM
As I've said before, President Obama's style is in stark contrast to his predecessor. In 60 days he's done quite a lot.

Let's be clear: Canada and the U.S. are co-dependent.
Joined at the hip. (through trade at the very least).
You have ten times the people we have.
Our problems are mutal. We're landlocked.
An attack on the U.S. is like an attack on us. (and vice-versa)

Those fucking goofs at Fox News who mocked our military don't know anything about us. How did that guy (Gutfeld) get to keep his job after that? Is it because he mocked canada's Army and not his own?
As a U.S. General said yesterday:
I've never met a Canadian soldier who wasn't an absolute professional, with real discipline.

We may not have the best tools in the world to do our job, but we sure as shit take the honor of serving Canada seriously.
It always amazes me (and kinda doesn't) that the U.S. media and citizens seem to know jack shit about Canada.

Johann
03-25-2009, 12:31 PM
I was concerned while watching last night about how this economic crisis will pan out. Even though Obama is doing seemingly everything right, this whole thing could just descend and descend...
Will it really be "over" after this year? I wonder.

As for Afghanistan, it appears to be very very complicated to extract themselves/ourselves from it. I wish I had all the intelligence Obama gets. I'd really like to know what he knows about the war. The logistics, the politics, the LOBBYISTS who're fucking around...

Chris Knipp
03-25-2009, 01:01 PM
It always amazes me (and kinda doesn't) that the U.S. media and citizens seem to know jack shit about Canada. We (Yanks) don't have the motivation; we don't think Canada matters. Michael Moore (who grew up close to the border) has pointed in a different direction, showing us that Canada can be a positive model. The much lower population is a big advantage, by the way, in my view. Over-population is an enormous source of problems in itself.
As for Afghanistan, it appears to be very very complicated to extract themselves/ourselves from it. I wish I had all the intelligence Obama gets. I'd really like to know what he knows about the war. The logistics, the politics, the LOBBYISTS who're fucking around..It is not complicated to extract ourselves from anywhere as remote and unimportant as Afghanistan. I don't buy that. It would be complicated to extract ourselves from places that are important to us and to the world, like Europe (we're heavily embedded there too, you know). But Afghanistan, no. Why do you say that?

A new development is that now we have finally recognized that Hamid Karzai is ineffectual and we are trying to plant another guy to take over while keeping H. K. as a figurehead. There's democracy for you: a puppet leader that we put in, and now a mole to take over from him. Well, it's a failed state with no central control, so elections aren't going to mean anything.
I was concerned while watching last night about how this economic crisis will pan out. Even though Obama is doing seemingly everything right, this whole thing could just descend and descend...
Will it really be "over" after this year? I wonder. Obama isn't doing everything right. That would be a great exaggeration. He's not doing enough, and he (or his administration) is repeating things that have been considered and rejetected in the past six months. Read Paul Krugman's columns in the NYTIMES or the commentary by many others since the lastest plan was announced, who explain that it's just a more complicated version of an abandoned Paulson/Bush plan. That's in the financial sector. If other stimuli are introduced to reduce joblesness and increase spending, that will certainly help. But I agree with the Keynesian view that more energetic actions need to be taken and need to be taken fast, and time's a-wasting.

Johann
03-25-2009, 01:09 PM
Would you suggest Obama make some bold moves? Some bold strokes? Be more decisive?

I say it's *seemingly* complicated to extract because why wouldn't Obama just pull out, with no questions asked?
There's gotta be a reason or host of reasons why he's talking more troops and keeping up the fight.

I have to believe that if it was as simple as saying "This war is not winnable- we're outta there, NOW" he would certainly do it.
He wouldn't hesitate.
But he's not- he's talking about the long haul.
And it's a Vietnam alright.
It's bad, bad, bad.
I don't know the mission.
Based on what I do know, it's a lost war.
Permanent war zone, as Hunter S. Thompson called it way back in '03.
That's why I want to know what Obama knows.
This war makes no sense to me.
Usually you can get your head around a war.
Not this one.

Chris Knipp
03-25-2009, 01:21 PM
Well, we agree Afghanistan is closely analogous to Vietnam, when Lyndon Johnson inherited it. You get involved in how you can win instead of how you can get out. It is complicated to get out, to guarantee the safety of your troops and of the people you've (allegedly) been protecting. But more complicated is dealing with the loss of face, and Janus-headed temptation to exploit power and play the savior. I don't think there is a legitimate reason for remaining in Afghanistan. I think Nir Rosen's description (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/23612315/how_we_lost_the_war_we_won) of the situation, which I cited before, is accurate--and, moreover, more down-to-earth than the kind of briefings that Obama is getting. I've listened to high level "experts" talking about foreign policy specifics on Charlie Rose for fifteen years and I am convinced that US "insider" government foreign intelligence information is very often clueless--partly because underlying assumptions, like whether we should even be there, are never questioned, but also because the info the summaries is based on is superficial or biased, not nitty gritty in the field stuff like Rosen gets for himself. And when there's a voice of truth in the CIA or somewhere, a canary in the coal mine, like those who warned of an imminent al-Qaida attack on the US just prior to 9/11, it's hushed up. The government doesn't want to listen to people like Nir Rosen, because they know he's not going to rubber-stamp US policy.

Johann
03-25-2009, 01:28 PM
Thanks for that.
Man, can you type fast!
With no spelling errors!

Chris Knipp
03-25-2009, 01:38 PM
Thank you, and I'm glad we're talking about this. Do take a look at Nir Rosen. I wish he wrote more stuff. I think he's got the most realistic picture on both Iraq and Afghanistan. There are articles he's written posted on the site of a think tank or research group was with in DC and there are also videos of him talking there and on Democracy Now. This is one of the toughest, most independent, and savvy reporters in the region I've ever seen. I like Robert Fisk too.

Nir Rosen has a website now listing all his articles (new thing): http://www.nirrosen.com/blog/

Apparently he has left the foundation (I can imagine differences of viewpoint might be a reason): http://www.newamerica.net/people/nir_rosen

This will lead you to some YouTube videos of Nir Rosen talking on Iraq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QbbJVARiBw.

You're going to like this guy: he's a tough dude.

As for Robert Fisk, he's lived in Lebanon for 30 years.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/

I'm a good typist but my accuracy varies.

Johann
03-25-2009, 02:05 PM
Re: the loss of face.

The U.S. lost face after pulling out of Vietnam, but I seem to recall the subsequent decade of the 80's being very prosperous and hopeful for the United States.
Did they lose that much face?

Couldn't you be seen as SMART in the long run, for acknowledging your loss and making the right decision to get out?

Chris Knipp
03-25-2009, 02:16 PM
Yes of course on all counts, but this is the hubris of power.

Johann
03-25-2009, 02:20 PM
Everything just HAS to be complicated, doesn't it?

Can't do anything straight-edge, no.
That's too simple.

Chris Knipp
03-25-2009, 02:23 PM
Simplicity is hard--for all of us. Complication is an aspect of addiction (as in, to power). A 12-Step slogan and an important one is KEEP IT SIMPLE.