favorites of 2001 [Archive] - FilmLeaf

JustaFied

09-24-2002, 01:31 PM

I'll add my favorites from 2001, though I won't be able to name 10 of them, because I can't remember 10 movies from that year that were worthy of consideration:

"The Man Who Wasn't There" - I'm surprised other lists I've seen don't include this movie. The Coen Brothers are at the top of their form right now, and the last few movies they've made (this one and "O Brother") are flawless, in my opinion. Every time I watch one of their movies, I pick up on something new, and I'm constantly amazed at how perfect the film is, from the writing to the acting, to the directing. I consider them to be the best filmakers in the history of film, and they're still only in their mid 40's. This was a funny and thoughtful movie, beautifully written and filmed. Billy Bob Thorton was perfect for the part; The Coens Brothers hit the nail on the head in casting the lead in every picture they make.

"Ghost World" - Really an original, funny, poignant film about growing up and entering the real world. Why wasn't Thora Birch nominated for this role? Same with Steve Buschemi.

"Royal Tennebaums" - Another completely original film from W. Anderson, though it tended to wander at times. I laughed from start to finish, except during the suicide scene.

"Apocolypse Now Redux" - I liked the original version much more, and I think the added scenes make the movie more choppy and reduce its rather mystic mood. Still, got to include it because the original was so good.

Johann

09-25-2002, 01:58 AM

I'm ashamed.

How did "The Man" slip my list? It may well be the Coens' best. (Although I'm REALLY partial to Barton Fink & The Big Lebowski, for sheer entertainment)

Cinematography students would do well to look long & hard at "The Man Who Wasn't There". Who says black & white is crap?

Keyser

09-29-2002, 01:20 PM

My favourite Coen films are Barton Fink and The Big Lebowski too. Favourites of 2001 include "The Fellowship of the Ring" (I've been waiting years to see this made), "Moulin Rouge", "The Man Who Wasn't There", and "A.I." I can't think of many more I could really recommend as being quite outstanding. Too many average or poor films released last year.

SinjinSB

10-13-2002, 11:59 PM

I have lists for everything...feel free to check out my site below. I have Top Tens by Year, Decade, categories(just starting).

Top Ten for 2001
A Beautiful Mind
i am sam
The Others
Blackhawk Down
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
Das Experiment
Enemy at the Gates
Monsters, Inc.
Shrek
Lantana

MarkMyWord_81

10-21-2002, 02:34 AM

I actually posted this on a movie group site a few days ago, so I'm tickled to get to discuss it again!

First of all, there are still SEVERAL key 2001 movies I have yet to see! It takes me a while to catch up on newer films, so my list never looks the same as other people's! lol Yet I have trouble imagining any of these top 5 being knocked out of the top 10.

1. The Shipping News (Lasse Hallstrom) -- A gem of movie craftsmanship. The trailers & video boxes do not do its plot justice. It has a nice combination of romance, determination, supernatural & a touch of dark humor. It is also a gorgeously filmed movie with great diologue and a tremendous cast. I can't recommend this one enough!

2. The Royal Tenenbaums (Wes Anderson) -- I am now a Wes Anderson fan! What superb craftmanship. I disagree with those who say that it is bogged down by TRYING TO PORTRAY an artistic gem. This is not for those who cannot laugh without a groin being crushed or pay attention without buildings exploding. I think most serious film fans will love it. This entertaining film works on several levels & takes at LEAST two viewings to really digest & interpret. And, may I ask, has Gene Hackman EVER disappointed????

3. Amelie (Jean-Pierre Juenet) -- I just saw this one last night & found it very much on the order of the two films listed in front of it. Striking cinematography, clever and innovating film editing, snappy dialogue, dark humor and poignancy and a fine cast make this one a real keeper.

4. Conspiracy (Frank Pierson) -- This HBO story of the infamous Wannessee Conference in Jan., 1942, at which "The Final Solution" to the Nazi's Jewish "problem" was discussed over an elegant dinner, is a chilling & rivoting movie. Kenneth Bronaugh will give one nightmares with his charming, erudite, yet (immediately below the surface) inhumanely cruel Oberstgruppenfuhrer Reinhard Hydrich. Kuddos to HBO for having the guts to tackle something like this -- and for doing it so well!

5. 61* (Billy Chrystal) -- One of the best baseball films ever made, 61* is a treat for baseball fans and non-fans. The story of Roger Maris & Mickey Mantle and their 1961 chase of Babe Ruth's legendary home run record is very accurate, historically, perfectly casted & very well-done. Another grand slam for HBO!

That's my humble top 5. Like I said, there are at least half a dozen from 2001 that I still really want to see. My list might well change after I do!

MarkMyWord

MarkMyWord_81

10-21-2002, 02:41 AM

If one DOESN'T allow me to count HBO movies on my list, then Rat Race & Ali would probably be # 4 & 5 on my list. I found Rat Race refreshingly funny. It was a perfect tribute by David Zucker to the old chase/race classics of the 1960s. I loved it. Ali was good, too, especially the incredible fight scenes! It could have been better, though. Am I the only one a bit miffed that it seemed to slam M.L. King & the peaceful Civil Rights movement?

Speaking of Donnie Darko, that is definitely one of the 2001 movies I plan to see. I love a good horror flick, though not the stupid slasher types. I'm a "dark fantasist" rather than a "splatter punk," to borrow two terms from horror novels.

MarkMyWord

Chris Knipp

11-23-2002, 04:23 AM

Whether it makes sense or not, making Best Lists becomes a focus for the obsessive filmgoer. It's a way of organizing the experience of many evenings out. And for those stay-at-homes, one's list can be useful for lining the pockets of Netflix et al. and catching up. I've begun making two Ten Best lists, one domestic and one foreign, because there seem to be so many good foreign movies (especially French) lately, but I don't want to be a snob and have them outnumber the local products.

T E N B E S T O F 2 0 0 1 ( U. S.)_______________________________________________

THE ANNIVERSARY PARTY (LEIGH, CUMMING)
A.I. (SPIELBERG)
BULLY (CLARK)
MEMENTO (NOLAN)
GHOST WORLD (ZWIGOFF)
L.I.E. (CUESTA)
WAKING LIFE (LINKLATER)
OCEAN’S ELEVEN (SODERBERGH)
IN THE BEDROOM (FIELD)
GOSFORD PARK (ALTMAN)

T E N B E S T F O R E I G N (2 0 0 1 )_____________________________________________

IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE (KAR-WAI)
WITH A FRIEND LIKE HARRY (MOLL)
SEXY BEAST (GLAZER)
COME UNDONE (LIFSHITZ)
TOGETHER (MOODYSSON)
CURE (KIYOSHI KUROSAWA)
BANGKOK DANGEROUS (PANG AND PANG)
VA SAVOIR (RIVETTE)
AMORES PERROS (INNARITU)
LANTANA (LAWRENCE)

These are the lists I made at the end of 2001. They're in the order that I originally saw them. The problem with lists for the non-professional is that you may not be able to see all the good stuff from that year till the following year. That's why I make another list:

O N E S I W I S H I ’ D S E E N B E F O R E I M A D E T H E S E L I S T S (2001)
_________________________________________________
TIME OUT (LAURENT CANTET)
Y TU MAMA TAMBIEN (CUARON)
CODE UNKNOWN (HANEKE)
FAITHLESS (ULLMANN)
ELOGE D’AMOUR (GODARD)
A WINTER’S TALE (ROHMER)
LOIN (TECHINE)
LUMUMBA (PECK)

If these are mostly foreign, that's my problem (I'm sure there were US movies I ought to have seen but missed but I didn't even know what they were). I have still not caught up on this list, by the way, except for TIME OUT and Y TU MAMA TAMBIEN. They are so good I would probably have moved a couple of the original foreign ones out -- maybe BANGKOK DANGEROUS and COME UNDONE -- to make room for them. Y TU MAMA TAMBIEN is a truly great and deliriously enjoyable movie and looks better at each successive viewing.

Before I made up the American list I saw most of the titles others have included, but chose to include lesser known movies such as BULLY and A.I.E., and also the generally unpopular A.I., because I happened to have liked them very much and I want to get other people to see them.

This year, perhaps my favorite American movie actually was to have been released in 2001 -- Henry Bean's amazing and powerful THE BELIEVER. It's gotten a raw deal, supposedly because of 9/11 but really because it's controversial and smart. The brilliant star can't be nominated for an Academy Award, and the movie was hardly seen by anyone in theaters, and it's still not available yet on a US video or DVD.

I did see DONNIE DARKO and found it interesting, especially the promising young star, but though it's potential cult material I don't think it quite hangs together enough to put on any Ten Best list -- and I can clearly see by now that it doesn't need me to hype it. It's being released in England now with much hype, and it's getting a lot of video word of mouth support these days. It's looking like its director and its star will both go on to great things.

P.s. I loved BROTHERHOOD OF THE WOLF. I didn't quite think it was Ten Best material, though. But a really fun, mainstream movie fully deserves to be on any list: OCEAN'S ELEVEN.

Johann

11-23-2002, 05:25 AM

The problem with making lists is it's all personal. Considering there are over 300+ films released a year, it's easy to miss great stuff & be prejudiced only to what you have seen. That's why the "Academy" rankles me every year. Those voters are severely prejudiced (dare I say bribed) into handing the golden dude to whoever tickles their fancy. That said, I love to hate watching the ceremony. (I usually get completely wasted on oscar night and the next day mumble while puking: Denzel is not better than Sean Penn ugggghh Denzel is not better.....)

I'm glad you mentioned Va Savoir- I saw it three times I liked it so much. Even got the poster. Great lists- you have some titles I haven't seen. I thought From Hell was a great movie-it's on my list for the ten best of 2001.

Gotta see this Donnie Darko I hear so much about.

oscar jubis

11-24-2002, 02:58 AM

ENGLISH LANGUAGE TOP 10

1. Mulholland Drive
2. Apocalypse Now Redux
3. A.I
4. Gosford Park
The Lord of the Rings:Fellowship
6. George Washington
In the bedroom
8. Ghost World
Our Song
Waking Life

Runners Up
The Royal Tenenbaums
Lantana
Memento
Bully
The Deep End
Monster's Ball
Monsters Inc.
Donnie Darko
The Others
Iris
Man Who Wasn't There.

FOREIGN LANGUAGE TOP 10

1. In the mood for love (Hong Kong)
2. Code Unknown (France/Norway)
The Swamp (Argentina)
4. Amores Perros (Mexico)
Divided we fall (Czech Rep.)
Eureka (Japan)
6. The Circle (Iran)
7. Chunhyang (South Korea)
The Gleaners and I (France)
Me, You, Them (Brasil)
One fine spring day (South Korea)

Runners Up
Together (Sweden)
Day I became a woman (Iran)
Faithless (Denmark)
My Sassy Girl (South Korea)
Under The Sand (Fra)
Perfume de Violetas (Mexico)
Our Lady of the assassins (Colombia)
Cure (Japan)
Nueve Reinas (Argentina)
Audition (Japan).

Chris Knipp

11-24-2002, 04:10 AM

Johan--Sure, lists are personal, is that bad? True, I'm not seeing 300 movies a year. But I’m seeing a lot of movies: that’s what made me start making Best Lists. I don't see everything but I try really hard to see all the ones there's a clear chance I'll like. I miss some of those due to logistics if I’m not in NY or LA the end of the year. Some of the best year's end releases don’t make it to northern California where I live till early the next year. That's where my Ones I Wish I'd Seen Before I Made This List comes in. Maybe I don't see enough out and out bad movies. That's my resolution: to try to see more movies I expect to be bad. Maybe I'll find some good ones among them. If not, at least I'll know more about what's out there. Yes, do see DONNIE DARKO.
I haven't seen FROM HELL.

Oscar Jubis--I like your list and we have quite a few choices in common. The only one of your Ten Best I have any reservations about is ROYAL TENNENBAUMS, which seemed too cute and contrived to me, but of course many discerning individuals liked it. GEORGE WASHINGTON came out in 2000, not 2001. I know because I was in NYC in late 2000 and just missed it. I still haven't managed to see it, but it sounded excellent and was on many critics' Best Lists. I want to see it, but I go out to see so many new movies, I don't have much time to stay home and rent a video. I have still missed CODE UNKNOWN. After seeing LA PIANISTE I definitely want to see it. I have to say I hated THE CIRCLE. Too relentlessly bleak; but then that is typical of Iranian films as I see them, and I'm not much of a fan of them. I would like to see those of your other foreign choices that I've missed; your lists look good. I just saw NUEVE REINAS in London. It was great. I'd heard about it, but it came and went here in a single week.

I urge everyone to see Henry Bean's THE BELIEVER as soon as you can get hold of a video of it, if you didn't see it in a theater, which is very possible. It was supposed to be released in 2001 and is dated 2001 officially.

My Best List for 2002 so far is this:

THE BELIEVER (Henry Bean)
THE GOOD GIRL (Miguel Arteta)
IGBY GOES DOWN (Burr Steers)
ONE HOUR PHOTO (Mark Romanek)
PUMPKIN (Anthony Adams and Adam Larson Broder)
PUNCH DRUNK LOVE (P.T. Anderson)
TADPOLE (Gary Winick)

My Best Foreign list for 2002 so far is this:

ALL OR NOTHING (Mike Leigh)
ATANARJUAT: THE FAST RUNNER (Zacharias Kunuk)
LA PIANISTE (Michael Haneke)
TALK TO HER (HABLE CON ELLA, Pedro Almodovar)
THE SON'S ROOM (LA STANZA DEL FIGLIO, Nanni Moretti)
READ MY LIPS (SUR MES LEVRES, Jacques Audiard)
TIME OUT (L'EMPLOI DU TEMPS, Laurent Cantet)
WHAT TIME IS IT THERE? (Ming-Liang Tsai)
Y TU MAMA TAMBIEN (Alfonso Cuaron)

Of course as usual many of the foreign ones originally showed somewhere a year or two before they came here.

FAR FROM HEAVEN (Todd Haynes) is going to be on a lot of Ten Best lists. I'm hoping to find other candidates because I found it overrated, as I did MONSTER'S BALL and THE DEEP END last year.

oscar jubis

11-26-2002, 12:05 AM

[i]Originally posted by Chris Knipp [ Some of the best year's end releases don’t make it to northern California where I live till early the next year. The only one of your Ten Best I have any reservations about is ROYAL TENNENBAUMS, which seemed too cute and contrived to me, but of course many discerning individuals liked it. I have still missed CODE UNKNOWN. After seeing LA PIANISTE I definitely want to see it. I have to say I hated THE CIRCLE. Too relentlessly bleak;

I usually wait until my birthday(3/12) to compile my best lists so I can catch up with films released in NYC and L.A. at the end of the year. These usually make the bulk of my english language list. For instance, all the films in your 2002 lists are good, but tell me, isn't your foreign list significantly stronger? Besides THE BELIEVER, I mean.
ROYAL TENNENBAUMS snuck into my top 10 after a second viewing. It seems to me more ambitious and original than runner ups like Monster's Ball and The Deep End. Your complaints about it are warranted though.
THE CIRCLE is bleak. I just react differently to bleakness: There are people trapped in bleak situations, suffering from all kinds of injustices. I am glad there are filmakers documenting their plight with grace and wit. And I'm sure they appreciate it. I also like how intensely moved I am by many "sad" films. Now, I don't think that bleakness makes a film great. The usually great Todd Solondz released a very bleak, and pretty bad, film this year:Storytelling.I also have great admiration for purely escapist fare such as Lord of the Rings and Amelie.
CODE UNKNOWN has a performance by J. Binoche as strong as I. Huppert's in La Pianiste. Besides, its scope is wider and its themes are more relevant to the average person. I love its novel use of film-within-a-film devices and how the narrative explodes in three directions before coming together again at the end. I think you would like it.

Chris Knipp

11-26-2002, 04:02 AM

Your system of waiting till March makes sense, I agree. It would be better for me to wait till later to make my best lists. The game may seem a little stale if you wait that long, that’s all. You’re right that my 2002 Best Foreign list is somewhat better than the American Best List, so far. After all the Best Foreign list comes from many countries and several years, and the American one from only the US and this year’s releases. Both lists are tentative, and I’ll knock off some entries if better things come along.

I may have been turned off by the way some Americans idolize Iranian directors excessively. But I want to explain that by “relentlessly bleak,” I meant not just sad, but hopeless. If the characters don’t have a chance, and don’t experience a single happy moment, as in THE CIRCLE, I find that manipulative. But sad is different from bleak. I agree that you should pay attention to how much a film moves you and be suspicious of ones that don't. But "relentlessly bleak" movies precisely can't make me feel sad, because they don't seem real.

This list discussion has made me realize I need to go to out and rent some things I’ve missed, including CODE UNKNOWN and GEORGE WASHINGTON as well as the other foreign films you mention that I haven't seen: THE GLEANERS, CHUNHYANG, DIVIDED WE FALL, and TOGETHER -- none of which I seem to have even heard of other than THE GLEANERS.

ROYAL TENNENBAUMS could easily be better than either THE DEEP END (which I thought totally overrated) and MONSTER’S BALL (which I thought at least somewhat overrated). I’m always willing to revise my opinions and ratings. But no two people (or critics) can pick exactly the same Ten Bests, can they?

After a year or two goes by, not everything I picked for a Best List still seems important. Only a few do.

oscar jubis

11-27-2002, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by Chris Knipp
I’m always willing to revise my opinions and ratings. But no two people (or critics) can pick exactly the same Ten Bests, can they?

After a year or two goes by, not everything I picked for a Best List still seems important. Only a few do. [/B]
No, they cannot because a person's list reveals his/her individual aesthetic sensibilities. I enjoy figuring out what is it about a film that I respond to, and even more, to step away from my comfort zone and assume the perspective of others like you who appreciate cinema.
For instance, I can tell you that many iranian films remind me of Ray's Apu trilogy and the films of Ozu and Bresson. They seem to find a shortcut to the essence of issues. They strike me as clear-headed without being simple. Censorship restraints force iranian directors to be creative when dealing with sensitive matters. You'll always find something "between the lines", " only hinted at", in a Kiarostami film. This turns me on.
I think I understand your criticism of The Circle. There are moments of whimsy and levity in every life , even the most desperate. Your comments moved me to contrast Circle with DIVIDED WE FALL, which I prefer. A holocaust movie with mucho irony and humor that even manages to show compassion towards nazi collaborators.
I also try to revise my opinion about a film by watching it again. Code Unknown and Memento got better the second time. MULHOLLAND DRIVE kept getting better and better. Some films require at least 2 viewings to unravel: Time Regained, most Godard and Hou-Hsien.

arsaib4

01-30-2005, 11:26 AM

Top 10

1. Apocalypse Now: Redux - Francis Ford Coppola / U.S.

2. Mulholland Drive - David Lynch / U.S.

3. Intimacy - Patrice Chéreau / France-U.K.

(rest alphabetical)

La Ciénaga - Lucrecia Martel / Argentina

Eureka - Shinji Aoyama / Japan

The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring
Peter Jackson / U.S.-New Zealand

Memento - Christopher Nolan / U.S.

One Day in the Life of Andrei Arsenevich
(Une Journee d'Andrei Arsenevitch) - Chris Marker / France

The Pledge - Sean Penn / U.S.

Va Savoir - Jacques Rivette / France

Runners-up
(alphabetical order only)

Ameros Perros - Alejandro González Iñárritu / Mexico

Center of the World - Wayne Wang / U.S.

Code Unknown (Code Inconnu) - Michael Haneke / France

The Devil's Backbone (El Espinazo del Diablo)
Guillermo del Toro / Spain-Mexico

In the Mood for Love (Hua yang nian hua)
Wong Kar-wai / Hong Kong

The Man Who Wasn't There - Joel & Ethan Coen / U.S.

No Man's Land - Danis Tanovic / Bosnia-Herzegovina

Tape - Richard Linklater / U.S.

Under the Sand (Sous le Sable) - François Ozon / France

The Vertical Ray of the Sun (Mua he Chieu Thang Dung)
Anh Hung Tran / Vietnam

Honorable Mention
(alphabetical order only)

Bread and Roses - Ken Loach / U.K.

Bully - Larry Clark / U.S.

Children Underground - Edet Belzberg / U.S.

The Circle (Dayereh) - Jafar Panahi / Iran

Fat Girl (À ma soeur!) - Catherine Breillat / France

From Hell - Allen & Albert Hughes / U.S.

Ghost World - Terry Zwigoff / U.S.

Monsters, Inc. - Peter Docter+David Silverman+Lee Unkrich / U.S.

The Tailor of Panama - John Boorman / U.S.

Waking Life - Richard Linklater / U.S.

*All films listed were "officialy distributed" theatrically in the U.S. during the year 2001. (Their eligibility was deemed by me.) Béla Tarr's Werckmeister Harmonies would've made the "Top Ten" if its release was official.

*Re-releases are included in my lists only when films are not in their original form.

Chris Knipp

01-30-2005, 03:42 PM

Good list as before. I differ as follows:

Agree:
Apocalypse Now REdux
Mulholland Drive
LoR
Memento
Amores Perros
Code Unknown
The Pledge
Va Savoir
Tape
Bully
Ghost World
Waking Life
Monsters, Inc

Haven't seen:
Intimacy
La Cienega
Eureka
One Day in the Life
Center of the World
CHildren Underground

Disagree:
Devil's Backbone
Man Who Wasn't There
No Man's Land
Under the Sand
Vertical Ray of the Sun
The Circle
Fat Girl
From Hell
Tailor of Panama
--there were better.

(Obviously I saw Code Unknown after making my 2001 lists.)

wpqx

01-30-2005, 04:01 PM

I'm surprised to see Bully get recognition. Although the film was overdone, and exploitative, I thought it represented teenage/high school life better than probably any film I had ever seen. Maybe my friends were just that messed up, who knows?

I'm surprised I didn't see this, and it is a little late, but . . .

1. Mulholland Drive
2. Moulin Rouge
3. The Royal Tenenbaums
4. Vanilla Sky
5. Memento
6. LOTR - The Fellowship of the Ring
7. Amores Perros
8. The Road Home
9. Apocalypse Now Redux (I don't think it counts but . . .)
10. Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (pardon me for liking crap)

oscar jubis

01-30-2005, 06:30 PM

I like arsaib4's list a lot. Of course, I could nitpick and argue that In the Mood for Love, The Circle and Waking Life are "better" than Intimacy, La Cienaga and Memento. But this is entirely a matter of subjective opinion and a matter of degree. Unless you tell me otherwise, I'll assume you watched The Gleaners and I, Divided We Fall and Gosford Park and concluded they are not among the top 30 for 2001.

wpqx, did you get to watch Open Your Eyes? It's the original that exposes the remake as inferior, especially but not exclusively the character played by Ms. Cameron Diaz.
Still more evidence that Mulholland Drive is a film that a remarkable number and variety of cinephiles absolutely love.

wpqx

01-30-2005, 09:02 PM

I feel ignorant but I still haven't gotten to see Open Your Eyes. With Vanilla Sky most people loved it or hated it, and I found myself in the first category. Perhaps I just feel that any use of surrealism in a film is worth something, and although a lot of people seem to hate him, I think Tom Cruise is great. I am not in a position to nitpick this version vs. the original, so I'm pleading ignorance.

Chris Knipp

01-30-2005, 11:53 PM

A good list, wpqx. It has a personality.

I have not seen Open Your Eyes (actually Spanish, no?) but Vanilla Sky genuinely sucked, in my view, perhaps because it was a remake. Tom was trying too hard, perhaps to please Penelope. But I'd have to see Open Your Eyes to see if it was the production or the whole story I dislike. Maybe both though.

(wpqx) 10. Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back (pardon me for liking crap)

Why apologize? Follow your bliss.

I have to confess I did not see Zhang's The Road Home. I do not absolutely love Mulholland Drive and have tired of Lynch's narrative incoherence+wonderful images, but I acknowledge he is a sugnificant director and this is one of his stronger movies.

arsaib4

01-31-2005, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by oscar jubis
I like arsaib4's list a lot. Of course, I could nitpick and argue that In the Mood for Love, The Circle and Waking Life are "better" than Intimacy, La Cienaga and Memento. But this is entirely a matter of subjective opinion and a matter of degree. Unless you tell me otherwise, I'll assume you watched The Gleaners and I, Divided We Fall and Gosford Park and concluded they are not among the top 30 for 2001.

Thanks for your comments. I think it's great that most of the earlier films you mentioned above made both of our lists. Where they finished is even more subjective, as you stated.

Well, when you try to see so many neglected and underappreciated films from all corners of the globe (and I do take pride in that), once in a while you don't end up watching the more celebrated ones like the films from Varda and Altman. I've heard a lot about both The Gleaners and I and Gosford Park and will make time to watch them.

wpqx

02-02-2005, 11:43 AM

Personally I found Gosford Park disappointing. Generally I'm a huge Robert Altman fan, but perhaps my expectations were too high for this film.

arsaib4

02-02-2005, 07:42 PM

Actually, I've heard that from more than a few people I trust; maybe that was one of the reasons I didn't pursue Gosford Park when it was released. Hopefully it'll play on cable soon.

Howard Schumann

02-10-2005, 12:53 AM

1. Promises
2. La Cienaga
3. Yi Yi
4. Chunhyang
5. A.I.
6. I'm Going Home
7. Son of the Bride
8. Royal Tenenbaums
9. Beijing Bicycle
10. Donnie Darko
11. L.I.E
12. The Circle.

arsaib4

02-10-2005, 01:30 AM

Thanks for posting your list Howard. I'm assuming that you simply mentioned the best films you saw in 2001. In my case, I've only listed films that were officially distributed in the U.S., so films like Yi Yi and I'm Going Home aren't on my 2001 list.

Howard Schumann

02-10-2005, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by arsaib4
Thanks for posting your list Howard. I'm assuming that you simply mentioned the best films you saw in 2001. In my case, I've only listed films that were officially distributed in the U.S., so films like Yi Yi and I'm Going Home aren't on my 2001 list. It gets very confusing so more often than not I will go with the IMdb date. I'm Going Home was shown at the New York Film Festival in 2001 but not released theatrically until the following May. The opposite is true for Yi Yi. I ususally list the films in the year that they either had their first theatrical release or DVD release here in Canada, so I could legitimately put Promises and La Cienaga on lists for 2002. So the dates really don't mean too much. You get the general idea that I really liked these films regardless of what year they show up on my list.

arsaib4

02-10-2005, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by Howard Schumann
It gets very confusing so more often than not I will go with the IMdb date. I'm Going Home was shown at the New York Film Festival in 2001 but not released theatrically until the following May. The opposite is true for Yi Yi. I ususally list the films in the year that they either had their first theatrical release or DVD release here in Canada, so I could legitimately put Promises and La Cienaga on lists for 2002. So the dates really don't mean too much. You get the general idea that I really liked these films regardless of what year they show up on my list.

I've certainly spent a lot of time figuring out the details but I believe this way I avoid films that get distributed down the road: I mean two to three years which isn't uncommon. J. Hoberman does something similar and I've studied the way he makes his. But you're right in saying that as long the film is there it really doesn't matter which year it belongs to.

Chris Knipp

02-10-2005, 02:24 AM

As far as I can see only two of these are the wrong year (2000) on IMDb, Yi Yi, and Chunhyang; the rest are legitimately 2001. (I love Yi Yi; I saw it at Film Forum in NYC in December 2000.) We all have this problem, that a film that opens late one year may not be available to us to see till early the next year. Still, four years later, one may as well stick to the release dates. But this year I listed de Pallières' Adieu because I thought it important to mention it, but I don't know if it'll ever got a US release. Your taste is unusual. I may be on the way to figuring it out, but I'm not there yet. As a matter of my own taste, I like five of your choices, the other five I've either not seen or don't like at all! By that time I was up to my habit of choosing ten US and ten foreign, and I've already posted my lists on this thread. I don't know which ones arsaib4 would disqualify. I would not hold to these now. For instance, I would certainly have listed Y Tu Mamá También if I'd seen it by then, but I hadn't. A splendid film: how can one omit it? I tend to keep more to mainstream US choices, because then my lists will relate more to other US lists. I'm not trying to teach or set an example, but to make distinctions of taste and quality within an established field. (Of course it's still subjective. And I have cheated, as with Adieu.) I also think it's helpful to list the director, to avoid confusion, and out of respect for the director's importance.

arsaib4

02-10-2005, 02:52 AM

I'm Going Home wasn't officially distributed till 2002 so that's probably the only other one. This year I'm gonna make a separate list for the best "undistributed" films so this way I can cover the other great films I've seen.

Will comment on the list later.

Chris Knipp

02-10-2005, 03:01 AM

I was thinking of I'm Going Home. I think a "best undistributed" list is the way to go, and some of the magazine and newspaper critics use it. I'll do it too, if my "undistributed" list grows for the year, as it should, partly due to tips I get from you and others on this site. I clearly see the importance of the "undistributed" Hou films, though I can really be dense: I missed Millenium Mambo even though it showed in Berkeley.

Howard Schumann

02-10-2005, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Chris Knipp
Your taste is unusual. I may be on the way to figuring it out, but I'm not there yet. Figure it out and you will unravel the mystery of life. Seriously, there's no way to figure out someone's taste and it isn't worth the effort. Just get that some films I like and some I dunt. By the way Y Tu Mama Tambien was on my 10 best list for 2002.

Chris Knipp

02-10-2005, 02:15 PM

Glad to hear about Y tu mama'. But of course it should go on the 2001 list even if we both saw it in 2002, no?

I don't agree with you that taste is a mystery. One can predict what films various people will like. Not with absolute certainty, but one can say, ah, yes, of course he would pick that one. Taste is a coherent outgrowth of personality and values, but maybe one's own taste is the one thing one can't figure out. We're too close to it.

oscar jubis

02-10-2005, 04:46 PM

I took a stab at writing a personal "cinephile manifesto". If curious:
www.filmwurld.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=6731#post6731

Chris Knipp

02-10-2005, 05:25 PM

That's all fine, and most of what you say is unexceptionable, but I don't think it alters the fact that it's hard for a person to define his own taste. I'm not sure this defines yours, except where you give away hints, e.g., by mentioning certain directors whom you take as authorities.

oscar jubis

02-10-2005, 08:18 PM

*I'm certainly not saying that it's easy to define one's own taste. I had to do a lot of thinking to come up with those statements.

*I was trying to avoid mentioning any directors. I felt I had to mention Antonioni and Kiarostami to illustrate the term "unfinished cinema" because I don't think it's become part of the lingo.

*I posted those statements only after I tested their ability to explain why I chose the films that made my Top 10 Favorites of 2003. They go a long way towards explaining why I like what I like, but I consider them a "work in progress". For instance, I probably need to add a paragraph about "emotional impact", or a film's ability to induce strong emotions, to "hit you in the gut", to "put a knot on your throat". You like examples, let's try...Magdalene Sisters made me feel such deep feelings of empathy and compassion towards these women (including the nuns themselves). I felt that something happened to me in that theatre, I wasn't exactly the same person that had walked in. That is something I value in cinema that my post does not address. Sometimes films meant to be "moving" or "touching" make me snicker, Magdalene disarmed me.

Liv Ullmann stated during her tribute tuesday that what she values most about cinema is its ability to sharpen your sense of who you are and your place in the world. My "personal disclosure" post is an attempt to put into words my sense of who I am as a moviegoer.

arsaib4

02-10-2005, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by Chris Knipp
Glad to hear about Y tu mama'. But of course it should go on the 2001 list even if we both saw it in 2002, no?

It was released on March 15th, 2002. This is just one of the reasons why I use official release dates.

Chris Knipp

02-11-2005, 02:01 PM

My mistake about Tu Mamà...Thanks for the correction, arsaib4; however, I was going by IMDb, which lists it as 2001 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0245574/.

Oscar: You certainly don't need to defend the validity of your credo, which is very interesting, shows evidence of much careful pondering, and raises many important issues, apart from working for you as an explanation of your choices of movie favorites. I've been discussing and thinking about your statements and want to comment on them in more detail shortly. But I still think that between

(1) one's rules (however personal) of what makes good cinema

and

(2) what films one chooses as favorites

lies a "je ne sais quoi" which can only be defined by details of one's specific likes and one's background and personal experience, one's age -- which are equally important to know (and for some more interesting to hear about). This is analagous to (but in a way almost a reversal of) arsaib4's comment at one point that it's not a list of movies which matters so much as how you justify or explain each movie's preseice on your list. But it's really in both cases, both; hence I would have liked more specific examples, which would not date or type-cast you but rather be instructive to everyone.

oscar jubis

02-11-2005, 11:53 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Knipp
I've been discussing and thinking about your statements and want to comment on them in more detail shortly.

So far you're the only one on-line helping me sharpen and clarify my thinking on these issues. I appreciate it.

a "je ne sais quoi" which can only be defined by details of one's specific likes and one's background and personal experience, one's age -- which are equally important to know (and for some more interesting to hear about)

I address these issues in most general terms on paragraphs titled: "subjectivity" and "values". In the past I've identified myself on separate occassions as :Internationalist, academically-inclined, bohemian, secularist, film-obsessed, anti-establishment, therapist, primitivist, middle-aged family guy. I've always assumed that's more than most would want to know. But we can get more specific about background, values, etc. that affect which films become our favorites.

I would have liked more specific examples, which would not date or type-cast you but rather be instructive to everyone.

Let's do it. Will anyone be surprised to find The Corporation and Eternal Sunshine atop my Favorite 10 English-language list for 2004?

Chris Knipp

02-12-2005, 02:48 AM

In the past I've identified myself on separate occassions as :Internationalist, academically-inclined, bohemian, secularist, film-obsessed, anti-establishment, therapist, primitivist, middle-aged family guy. I've always assumed that's more than most would want to know.

How are you in bed? (Just joking: but this sounds like a Personals ad.) No, these are all rather general. But it gets silly after a while, since ultimately predicting your choices, ESSM or The Corporation, from your general coordinates is as easy as getting a barrel of monkeys to produce the works of Shakespeare.

Didn't you ever take a writing course, and have the teacher tell you to be more specific? You've set down words that have no resonance. Just one detail would help, like what kind of shoes you wear, but we've all been so codified by market researchers that this is dangerous ground; David Foster Wallace has been having fun with that in recent short stories.

Chris Knipp

02-12-2005, 03:16 AM

International Outlook. In adopting this outlook, I think the great danger is OVERCOMPENSATION. This commonly takes the form of rating small foreign films highly because they're small and foreign, and failing to recognize that the ordinary Hollywood products are often very well crafted as well as good entertainment -- and thirty years later turn out to be Douglas Sirk or whatever. An example: In Good Company, with Topher Grace, Dennis Quaid, Scarlett Johansson, et al. Some of the non-European films held up for admiration of late have seemed to me rather crudely thrown together. And naturalism and a low budget aren't justifications for that.

Cinema is a lot more than storytelling. Indeed it is, and I used to champion the purely "cinematic" or (my pretentious coinage) "filmic" in my college days and revile the New Yorker movie critic who wrote about every film as if it were a novel or a play. But you rightly say you respect viewers who enjoy a good story on film. That said, you need to admit that first of all, a movie without a story is unlikely to appeal to many people, and second, there are a lot of marvellous movies being made today that are primarily storytelling. Two examples: Li's Blind Shaft and Zvyagintzev's The Return. In fact, it is hard to claim any film that's other than a pure refraction of light and shape to be NOT "storytelling." Antonioni's L'avventura, for instance, may seem to be eventless, but in its own way it too tells a story.

I think this is a rich topic (it has been me to all these years), and we could get a lot more mileage out of the distinctions between movies and novels, plays, or poems; but very often a movie is another kind of storytelling, but still storytelling, done differently. I too wish more movies were more cinematic. But just having fancy flashbacks or special effects doesn't really make them cinematic. What does? I don't know; you tell me. Examples, please. (I really don't think you can talk about any of the arts without very specific, very tactile examples.)

What's New? "I place a great deal of value on originality." Yes, who doesn't? But originality is in the eye of the beholder. This is a hard quality to prove or identify. I think maybe what you mean is that you don't look for conventional crap. But something quite fine can be made within the confines of a strict tradition, and often in the arts this is the case, even though modernism favors the appearance of innovation above conventionality.

Query: In making this (excellent) list of principles, how sure can you be that these are qualities you find in film, and not simply qualities that you attribute to movies that you like, because in principle you admire such qualities?

Viewer as active participant Fine, but this is rather general. Any great art rewards study, invites interpretation, and does not reveal all its secrets at first view. However, I reject the notion that "difficulty" makes a movie more admirable.

Subjectivity vs. Values. I see some contradiction in these two. Don't you? But I translated this to my French teacher, and she said 'Yes, but contradition is necessary.' 'You mean because that's life?' I asked, and she said 'Yes, of course.'

I strongly agree that "most movies fall between 'mediocre' and 'good.'" Moderation is a good point, and critics are too generous with their praise and also conversely fail to recognize that a movie they don't think lives up to their standards may be good entertainment. But the hipper critics have usually recognized that there's lots of guilty pleasure to be had, and it can be had without guilt, actually. My friend JD is always recommending "good junk" to me, and sometimes I manage to let down my critical strictures and have fun at the movies, which I think Pauline Kael always thought was what should be happening.

oscar jubis

02-20-2005, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by Chris Knipp
International Outlook. In adopting this outlook, I think the great danger is OVERCOMPENSATION. This commonly takes the form of rating small foreign films highly because they're small and foreign, and failing to recognize that the ordinary Hollywood products are often very well crafted as well as good entertainment.

I'll be vigilant to avoid overcompensation. I'm a huge fan of the LOTR films for instance, and having a Top 10 exclusively for Eng. Language films ensures these get the deserved attention.

Some of the non-European films held up for admiration of late have seemed to me rather crudely thrown together.

I'm wondering what your reaction would be the more free-form, on-the-sly Jean Rouch films I watched at the MIFF. It's possible you may think of them as "crudely put together". The film that term calls forth from my memory bank is the Amerindie Charlotte Sometimes, a film you liked. Go figure.

Cinema is a lot more than storytelling. you need to admit that first of all, a movie without a story is unlikely to appeal to many people

The essay is only about figuring out what I like.

there are a lot of marvellous movies being made today that are primarily storytelling.

Yes, which doesn't contradict the statement: "Cinema is a lot more than storytelling".

In fact, it is hard to claim any film that's other than a pure refraction of light and shape to be NOT "storytelling." Antonioni's L'avventura, for instance, may seem to be eventless, but in its own way it too tells a story.

Agreed, and L'Avventura most definitely tells a story. The films that are not "storytelling", I propose, are the ones that truly deserve the label "art cinema". I'm thinking of Morrison's Decasia, most films by Stan Brakhage, etc.

fancy flashbacks or special effects doesn't really make them cinematic. What does? I don't know; you tell me.

Tough topic to discuss. A point of departure for a discussion would be the statement that the more a film communicates via images the more cinematic it is, the less dependent on the spoken word, the more cinematic.

originality is in the eye of the beholder. This is a hard quality to prove or identify.

Right, it's entirely dependent on each person's level and variety of experience with cinema. The concept "avant garde" is of limited use because what is "avant" varies from viewer to viewer. To most audiences, a relic like Bunuel's 75 year-old L'Age d'Or is still avant garde.

Query: how sure can you be that these are qualities you find in film, and not simply qualities that you attribute to movies that you like

It didn't occur to me to attempt to codify my esthetics until 2004, until I had spent 4 decades at the movies. The starting point was a look at the 215 films (and growing) or so I listed under a personal canon and to try to find patterns and commonalities.

Viewer as active participant. Fine, but this is rather general. Any great art rewards study, invites interpretation, and does not reveal all its secrets at first view. However, I reject the notion that "difficulty" makes a movie more admirable.

Right on both counts. I don't find anything admirable about films that are obtuse and impenetrable. Then again, a few that appear that way after one viewing, end up being films that "reward study", allow for multiple, valid interpretations, reveal their richness gradually. If "difficulty" made a movie admirable, then Godard would be better represented in my personal canon. His most recent films appear to be getting more accessible.

Subjectivity vs. Values. I see some contradiction in these two.

I never wrote "vs.". I mentioned values in the subjectivity paragraph, and decided to expand the discussion of values in the next paragraph. It's more like 4) and 4a).

I manage to let down my critical strictures and have fun at the movies

Me too. But there's all kinds of fun, no?